Thomas Keller Height 2026: How Tall Is Thomas Keller?

Thomas Keller height 2026: the French Laundry chef stands 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m). Born Oct 14, 1955, he is 71 — with two 3-Michelin-star restaurants and $20–50M.

Last updated: November 14, 2026 · By Nathan Cole

Thomas Keller is 6 feet 2 inches tall. The chef behind The French Laundry and Per Se stands at 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m), a figure Penn Book Center lists in its 2024 profile, with WealthyPersons and BestToppers both printing 1.87 m — the same height to within a centimetre. He is 71 years old in 2026, born Thomas Aloysius Keller on October 14, 1955, at Camp Pendleton in Oceanside, California, and he is the only American-born chef to have held three Michelin stars at two restaurants at the same time.

The height question has a wrinkle worth clearing up first: two sites print 5 ft 9 in, and both pair it with a metric figure that contradicts their own label. This profile settles the number with the arithmetic, then tells the story behind it — the Catskills apprenticeship, the 1994 purchase of a stone laundry building in Yountville, the two three-star restaurants, the cookbooks, the Ratatouille connection, and a 2026 that has put Keller back in the news with a resort deal, a sculpture, and a 50th-anniversary lunch at the French Laundry.

Quick Facts

Full Name Thomas Aloysius Keller
Born October 14, 1955, Camp Pendleton, Oceanside, California
Age 71 years old (turned 71 on October 14, 2026)
Height 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m)
Weight Around 83 kg (182–183 lbs)
Role Chef and proprietor, Thomas Keller Restaurant Group
Restaurants The French Laundry (Yountville), Per Se (New York), Bouchon, Ad Hoc, The Surf Club Restaurant
Michelin Stars Three stars at The French Laundry and three at Per Se, held continuously since 2007 and 2006
Net Worth $20–50 million estimated, 2026
Married Never married; no children

How This Height Was Verified

Thomas Keller’s height of 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) rests on agreement across the biography sites that actually publish a figure. Penn Book Center lists 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m). WealthyPersons lists 1.87 m. BestToppers lists 6.2 ft and 1.87 m. The arithmetic decides the rendering: 187 cm converts to 73.6 inches, which is 6 ft 1.6 in, and 188 cm converts to 74.0 inches, which is exactly 6 ft 2 in. Two outliers were checked and set aside: LuxLux prints 178 cm (5 ft 9 in) in one line and “6 ft 1 in (178 cm)” in another — a label that contradicts its own metric figure, since 6 ft 1 in is 185 cm. CAknowledge repeats the same broken pairing. Career and 2026 details come from Britannica (updated October 27, 2026), the Chaine des Rotisseurs, Nation’s Restaurant News as reported in June 2026, and the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle (October 22, 2026). The net worth range comes from Penn Book Center ($20 million, 2024) and LuxLux ($50 million, 2023).

Thomas Keller height 2026 — illustrated portrait of the French Laundry chef with his height, 6 ft 2 in, on a navy and gold background
Thomas Keller’s estimated net worth in 2026 — illustrated for Guide Net Worth.

How Tall Is Thomas Keller in 2026?

Thomas Keller is 6 ft 2 in tall (1.88 m). That is the figure Penn Book Center published in 2024, and it lines up with the two other biography sites that print a metric figure: WealthyPersons gives 1.87 m, and BestToppers gives 1.87 m beside a 6.2 ft label. Put the numbers together and the range is 187–188 cm — a spread of one centimetre, which is the kind of spread you get when different sites round the same measurement differently.

At 6 ft 2 in, Keller stands two inches above the average American man and at the same height as Gordon Ramsay, the other chef most often named in the same breath. He is also one of the tallest chefs in the fine-dining world, a fact that shows up in photographs: in kitchen shots from The French Laundry, Keller stands a head above most of his brigade, and in the dining room he is easy to pick out among guests.

His weight is listed at around 83 kg (182–183 lbs) by WealthyPersons and BestToppers, a slim build for a man of his height — and a build that has stayed roughly the same across four decades of photographs, from the Rakel years in New York to the present day.

The 188 cm Verdict: Why Some Sites Disagree

Search “Thomas Keller height” and the first page gives you two different answers, and the split is worth explaining because it shows how celebrity height figures go wrong. The majority position is 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) or 1.87 m. The minority position is 5 ft 9 in (178 cm), printed by LuxLux and by CAknowledge.

The minority figure fails its own arithmetic. LuxLux lists Keller’s height as 178 cm in one place and then describes him as “6 ft 1 in (178 cm)” in the body of the same article. Those two numbers cannot both be true: 6 ft 1 in is 185 cm, and 178 cm is 5 ft 10 in. CAknowledge repeats the identical pairing — “6 ft 1 in (178 cm)” — which suggests one site copied the other, error included. Neither site names a source for the figure, and no other outlet repeats it.

The majority figure holds up better. Penn Book Center’s Quick Facts table lists 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) as a standalone entry, and both WealthyPersons and BestToppers land on 1.87 m independently. The conversion math supports the top end: 188 cm divided by 2.54 is 74.02 inches, which is 6 feet and a fraction of an inch. Keller’s own public appearances support it too. In photographs beside Gordon Ramsay, who is listed at 6 ft 2 in, the two men are the same height. That is the check that matters: when two independently sourced figures agree and the photographs match, the number is settled.

Thomas Keller’s Height Compared to Other Famous Chefs

Keller sits at the tall end of the celebrity-chef range. Only one chef in our comparison stands taller, and the gap between Keller and the shortest is a full six inches.

Chef Height Difference vs Keller
Anthony Bourdain 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) 2 in taller
Thomas Keller 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) —
Gordon Ramsay 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) Same height
Bobby Flay 5 ft 10.5 in (1.79 m) 3.5 in shorter
Guy Fieri 5 ft 10 in (1.78 m) 4 in shorter
Jamie Oliver 5 ft 10 in (1.78 m) 4 in shorter
Wolfgang Puck 5 ft 8 in (1.73 m) 6 in shorter

Anthony Bourdain, at 6 ft 4 in, was the tallest of the group — two inches above Keller. Wolfgang Puck, at 5 ft 8 in, was the shortest, six inches below Keller. Bobby Flay’s 5 ft 10.5 in puts him in the middle of the pack, while Guy Fieri and Jamie Oliver both stand at 5 ft 10 in. The pattern is a real one: the classically trained, fine-dining chefs of Keller’s generation trend taller than the television chefs who followed them.

Early Life: Camp Pendleton to the Catskills

Thomas Aloysius Keller was born on October 14, 1955, at Camp Pendleton, the Marine Corps base in Oceanside, California. His father, Edward, was a Marine officer. His mother, Betty, managed restaurants. That combination — military discipline on one side, restaurant work on the other — shaped the chef Keller became: a man who runs kitchens with drill-sergeant precision and talks about hospitality like a moral duty.

The family moved around, and Keller spent much of his childhood in Palm Beach, Florida, where his mother ran a restaurant. He started working in kitchens as a teenager, washing dishes and learning the line. The decisive step came in the Catskills, where he apprenticed in French cooking under Roland Henin at La Rive. Henin was a classically trained French chef, and the apprenticeship gave Keller the foundation he still works from: sauces, stocks, knife work, and the idea that a dish is finished only when every element earns its place.

Keller then spent time cooking in France, absorbing the techniques of the country’s great kitchens. When he came back to the United States, he had the training and the ambition, but not yet the restaurant. That arrived in 1987, when he opened Rakel in New York with Serge Raoul. Rakel won praise — the New York Times gave it two stars — but it closed after a few years, and Keller spent the early 1990s working as a consultant and chef-for-hire, waiting for the right room.

The French Laundry: Buying a Stone Building in 1994

In 1994 Keller bought a two-storey stone building in Yountville, in California’s Napa Valley, and opened The French Laundry. The building had been a laundry in the 1920s — hence the name — and Keller turned it into a restaurant with a single tasting menu, a small dining room, and a kitchen run to a standard no American restaurant had yet attempted.

The gamble paid off slowly, then all at once. The French Laundry Cookbook, published in 1999, became a fixture on chefs’ shelves. The restaurant earned three Michelin stars in the first Michelin Guide San Francisco in 2007 and has held them continuously ever since. It also held a Michelin Green Star for sustainability until Michelin discontinued the Green Star in May 2026.

What makes the French Laundry unusual is how little it has changed. The menu is still a tasting menu. The dining room still seats a small number of guests. The kitchen still works to the same standard Keller set in 1994: every plate checked, every sauce tasted, every garnish placed by hand. That refusal to scale up is part of why the restaurant’s reputation has held for three decades.

Illustration of a tall chef in a white jacket plating a delicate dish at a marble pass in a navy and gold fine dining kitchen
A chef plating at the pass in a three-star kitchen — the precision Keller built his name on, illustrated for Guide Net Worth.

Per Se and the Two-Restaurant Three-Star Record

Ten years after the French Laundry, Keller opened Per Se in February 2004, on the fourth floor of the Time Warner Center in Manhattan. He described it as a New York interpretation of the French Laundry: the same tasting-menu format, the same discipline, but with the city’s ingredients and its own dining room looking out over Columbus Circle.

Per Se earned three Michelin stars in the inaugural Michelin Guide New York City in 2006, and it has held them continuously for two decades. The James Beard Foundation named it Best New Restaurant in 2005, a year before the Michelin result. Together, the two restaurants gave Keller a record Britannica still describes as singular: he is the first — and as of 2024 the only — American-born chef to hold three Michelin stars at two different restaurants at the same time.

The comparison with Gordon Ramsay, who built a $220 million fortune on a far larger restaurant empire, shows how different Keller’s model is. Ramsay runs dozens of restaurants across several continents. Keller runs a small group, and the two flagships have kept their stars for nearly twenty years without a break. That is a different kind of achievement, and a harder one to hold.

The Restaurant Group: Bouchon, Ad Hoc and the Surf Club

Around the two flagships, Keller built the Thomas Keller Restaurant Group. Bouchon, the French bistro in Yountville, opened in 1998 and now has locations in Beverly Hills and Las Vegas. Bouchon Bakery followed. Ad Hoc, the family-style restaurant in Yountville, opened in 2006 and became the basis for a cookbook of the same name. The Surf Club Restaurant in Surfside, Florida, brought the group’s cooking to the Atlantic coast.

None of these restaurants chases Michelin stars. That is the point. Bouchon serves bistro food — roast chicken, steak frites, onion soup — at the same standard of sourcing and technique as the flagships, but at bistro prices. The group works because the flagships set the standard and the rest of the restaurants live up to it, not because every room is trying to be the French Laundry.

Cookbooks, Method and the Ratatouille Connection

Keller’s books are part of his influence. The French Laundry Cookbook (1999) is a 300-page manual of technique that chefs still quote. Bouchon (2004) did the same for bistro cooking. Under Pressure (2008) explained sous-vide cooking to a professional audience before it was common. Ad Hoc at Home (2009), Bouchon Bakery (2012) and The French Laundry, Per Se (2020) followed.

His most famous screen credit is one most viewers never notice. Keller consulted on Pixar’s Ratatouille (2007), and the film’s kitchen scenes — the way the rat Remy plates, the discipline of the brigade, the idea that anyone can cook — drew on his techniques and his philosophy. The film’s director, Brad Bird, has said Keller’s kitchen was the model for the one on screen. Keller was also featured on Netflix’s Chef’s Table: Legends in April 2025, a series that placed him among the chefs who defined modern fine dining.

2025–2026: Chef’s Table, Coral Casino and the CIA Sculpture

Keller turned 71 in October 2026, and the year has been a busy one for a chef who could have retired a decade ago. In May, the 50th anniversary of the Judgment of Paris — the 1976 tasting that put California wine on the world map — was celebrated with a lunch at the French Laundry, where the Chaîne des Rôtisseurs gathered 60 guests for a seven-course menu.

In June 2026, Nation’s Restaurant News reported that Keller had taken on a new role with Ty Warner Hotels & Resorts, reworking the entire food and beverage programme at the Coral Casino Beach and Cabana Club in Montecito, California. The move is a late-career expansion into high-end resort dining rather than another standalone restaurant, and it is being framed as an extension of the Thomas Keller Restaurant Group’s philosophy of precision and mentorship.

Two smaller 2026 items round out the picture. IQBAR launched two limited-edition bar flavours with Keller, a chef-crafted Salted Caramel Chip and a Yuzu variety. And on October 22, 2026, the Culinary Institute of America unveiled a sculpture of Keller by artist Gordon Huether at its Hyde Park campus — a rare honour for a living chef. The next date on the calendar is December 14, 2026, when Michelin announces its 2026 Northeast Cities selection, including New York; the latest published New York selection as of November 2026 is the 2025 edition, in which Per Se kept its three stars.

Illustration of a luxurious tasting menu table with small artful plates, wine glasses and golden cutlery on dark navy linen
The tasting-menu table at a Keller restaurant — small plates, candlelight and navy linen, illustrated for Guide Net Worth.

How His Height Fits the Kitchen

A chef’s height is a working detail, not a decoration. At 6 ft 2 in, Keller works over a pass and a stove built for people shorter than he is, and he has spent four decades doing it without the back trouble that ends many chefs’ careers. His height also shows in the dining room: when Keller walks the floor at the French Laundry, guests spot him before he reaches their table.

There is a quieter point too. Keller’s kitchens are famous for their discipline — the brigade system, the silent pass, the tasting of every sauce — and his physical presence is part of how that discipline reads. A tall chef in a white jacket, standing still at the pass while the kitchen moves around him, is a picture his cooks remember. It is not the reason the restaurants earned three stars. It is part of the atmosphere in which they did.

Thomas Keller’s Net Worth in 2026

Thomas Keller’s net worth in 2026 is estimated at $20–50 million. Penn Book Center put the figure at $20 million in 2024, and LuxLux reported $50 million in 2023. The range reflects how the number is built: two three-star restaurants, the Bouchon and Ad Hoc group, six cookbooks, consulting work, and brand partnerships such as the 2026 IQBAR flavours.

One outlier deserves a mention so readers are not misled by it. CAknowledge claims $160 million, a figure no other outlet supports and one that sits far above the rest of the reporting. The $20–50 million range is the honest summary of the published estimates. Keller has never discussed his personal finances in public, and none of these figures comes from him.

For context, the money in fine dining is thin compared with television. A three-star tasting menu at the French Laundry runs to several hundred dollars a head, but the dining room is small, the staff is large, and the ingredients are expensive. Keller’s wealth comes from doing the same thing for thirty years at the highest standard, not from a single windfall.

Personal Life: Private by Design

Keller has never married and has no children. He keeps his private life out of the press, and profiles name his longtime partner as Laura Cunningham. He does not post about his personal life, and interviews with him stay on food, technique and mentorship.

What he does talk about is teaching. Keller’s restaurants are known as training grounds: cooks who pass through the French Laundry and Per Se go on to run their own kitchens, and Keller treats that as part of the job. The 2026 Coral Casino role is the same idea at a larger scale — taking the group’s standards into a resort and teaching a new team to hold them.

Awards and Recognition

Year Honour
2001 James Beard Foundation, Outstanding Chef
2005 James Beard Foundation, Best New Restaurant (Per Se)
2006 Three Michelin stars, Per Se (inaugural New York guide)
2007 Three Michelin stars, The French Laundry (first San Francisco guide)
2007 Consultant, Pixar’s Ratatouille
2025 Featured, Netflix Chef’s Table: Legends
2026 Sculpture unveiled, Culinary Institute of America, Hyde Park

Keller’s cooking has a name inside his kitchens: finesse. It means small portions served with exact technique, sauces built from stocks that take days, and plates where nothing is there by accident. In The French Laundry Cookbook he wrote about the law of diminishing returns — the idea that a cook should stop adding to a dish the moment the next addition makes it worse rather than better. It is a rule his kitchens still follow.

He also wrote one of the most quoted lines in modern cooking: “A recipe has no soul. You, as the cook, must bring soul to the recipe.” The line matters because it explains the contradiction at the centre of Keller’s reputation. His kitchens are the most disciplined in America — the brigade system, the silent pass, the tasting of every sauce — and yet the food is meant to feel personal, even emotional. The discipline is what makes the feeling possible. A cook who has to think about technique cannot think about the guest.

That philosophy is why the French Laundry’s tasting menu has stayed small. The restaurant serves a handful of courses, each one a few bites, and the point is progression: a cold course, a warm course, a fish course, a meat course, cheese, dessert. The menu changes with the seasons and with what the farms in Napa Valley are producing that week. Guests who ask for the same dish they had five years ago are told, politely, that the kitchen has moved on.

Before the French Laundry made him famous, Keller spent the early 1990s in the kind of professional limbo that ends most chefs’ careers. Rakel, the New York restaurant he opened in 1987, had won two stars from the New York Times and the respect of the city’s critics, but it closed after a few years. Keller was 36, without a restaurant, and known mainly to other chefs.

He spent the next three years consulting and cooking for hire, taking short jobs and studying what he wanted his own restaurant to be. The answer, when it came, was the opposite of what New York expected. Instead of opening another Manhattan restaurant, he bought a stone building in a small Napa Valley town and bet that diners would drive two hours from San Francisco for a tasting menu. In 1994 that was not an obvious bet. It is the decision that made his career, and it is still the clearest example of how Keller thinks: pick the harder path, then outwork everyone on it.

The early years in Yountville were not easy either. The French Laundry lost money at first, and Keller has said the restaurant survived because the food was good enough to bring people back. Word of mouth did the rest. By 1999, when the cookbook came out, the restaurant was booked weeks ahead. By 2007 it had three Michelin stars. The lost years are worth remembering because they explain the discipline: Keller had already lost one restaurant, and he built the second one as if he could not afford to lose another.

Height questions follow chefs for a simple reason: television and photographs make them hard to judge. Keller rarely appears on television — he has no competition show, no catchphrase, no weekly slot — so most people meet him in still photographs, standing beside other chefs, holding a plate, or walking a dining room. In those photographs he looks tall, and the question follows.

The comparison that drives most of the searches is Gordon Ramsay. The two men are the same height, and they are photographed together often enough — at charity dinners, at industry events, at the 2026 events in Napa — that readers notice the match and check it. The other comparison is Anthony Bourdain, who stood two inches taller and who wrote about Keller with open admiration in Kitchen Confidential, calling the French Laundry the best restaurant in America. Bourdain’s height and Keller’s height are the two numbers that anchor the tall end of the chef range.

There is also a practical reason the question persists. Keller’s kitchens are built around the pass — the counter where finished plates are checked before they go to the dining room — and the pass is a standing job. A chef who is 6 ft 2 in works at a different angle to the plates than a chef who is 5 ft 8 in, and the cooks who train under Keller notice. It is a small detail, but in a kitchen where every detail is noticed, small details become part of the legend.

Measure Figure
Height 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m)
Age in 2026 71 (born October 14, 1955)
Years cooking professionally 50+ (since the 1970s)
Years at The French Laundry 32 (opened 1994)
Michelin stars held 6 (three at each flagship)
Years holding three stars 20 at Per Se, 19 at The French Laundry
Cookbooks published 6
Estimated net worth $20–50 million

The table makes the point the article has been building toward. Keller’s height is the least interesting number in it. The interesting numbers are the ones that took thirty years to earn: two restaurants holding three stars for two decades, six cookbooks, and a career that is still expanding in 2026 with a resort deal and a sculpture. Height is a fact about a person. The rest is a record.

Sources & Reporting

Height figures: Penn Book Center (2024) lists 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m); WealthyPersons lists 1.87 m; BestToppers lists 6.2 ft and 1.87 m; LuxLux and CAknowledge list the 178 cm / 5 ft 9 in outlier, with internally inconsistent labels, and were set aside. Career history and the three-star record: Britannica, updated October 27, 2026. 2026 reporting: Chaine des Rotisseurs News Online (Judgment of Paris 50th anniversary lunch, May 30, 2026), Nation’s Restaurant News via Biography Flash (Ty Warner Hotels & Resorts role, June 2026), Rochester Democrat and Chronicle (CIA sculpture, October 22, 2026), and pickuptable4 (Michelin Green Star discontinued May 2026; 2026 Northeast Cities selection scheduled December 14, 2026). Net worth: Penn Book Center ($20 million, 2024) and LuxLux ($50 million, 2023); CAknowledge’s $160 million is named as the unsupported high outlier. Peer heights come from Guide Net Worth’s own verified chef-height profiles. Reporting window: November 2026. Figures are updated when new reporting emerges — contact us via the About page if you spot an error.

Frequently Asked Questions

How tall is Thomas Keller in feet and inches?

Thomas Keller is 6 ft 2 in tall (1.88 m). Penn Book Center lists 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m), and WealthyPersons and BestToppers both print 1.87 m — the same height to within a centimetre. The conversion supports it: 188 cm divided by 2.54 is 74.02 inches, which is six feet and a fraction of an inch.

Is Thomas Keller 6 ft 2 in, or 5 ft 9 in?

Thomas Keller is 6 ft 2 in. Two sites print 5 ft 9 in (178 cm) and both fail their own arithmetic: LuxLux also writes “6 ft 1 in (178 cm)” in the same article, and 6 ft 1 in is 185 cm, not 178. CAknowledge repeats the same broken pairing. No other outlet repeats the 5 ft 9 in figure, and photographs of Keller beside Gordon Ramsay — who is listed at 6 ft 2 in — show the two men at the same height.

How old is Thomas Keller in 2026?

Thomas Keller is 71 years old in 2026. He was born Thomas Aloysius Keller on October 14, 1955, at Camp Pendleton in Oceanside, California, and he turned 71 on October 14, 2026. He bought the French Laundry in 1994, when he was 38, and opened Per Se in 2004, when he was 48.

How tall is Thomas Keller compared to Gordon Ramsay?

Thomas Keller and Gordon Ramsay are the same height: both stand 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m). Keller is two inches shorter than Anthony Bourdain, who was 6 ft 4 in, and four inches taller than Guy Fieri and Jamie Oliver, who both stand 5 ft 10 in. Wolfgang Puck, at 5 ft 8 in, is six inches shorter than Keller.

What is Thomas Keller’s net worth in 2026?

Thomas Keller’s net worth in 2026 is estimated at $20–50 million. Penn Book Center put the figure at $20 million in 2024, and LuxLux reported $50 million in 2023. The money comes from two three-Michelin-star restaurants, the Bouchon and Ad Hoc group, six cookbooks, consulting work, and brand partnerships. One site claims $160 million, a figure no other outlet supports.

How many Michelin stars does Thomas Keller have?

Thomas Keller holds three Michelin stars at The French Laundry and three at Per Se — six stars across the two restaurants. Per Se earned its three stars in the inaugural Michelin Guide New York City in 2006 and has held them since; the French Laundry earned its three in the first Michelin Guide San Francisco in 2007 and has held them since. He is the first — and as of 2024 the only — American-born chef to hold three stars at two restaurants at the same time.

Is Thomas Keller married?

No, Thomas Keller has never married and has no children. He keeps his private life out of the press, and profiles name his longtime partner as Laura Cunningham. Interviews with Keller stay on food, technique and mentorship rather than his personal life.

What restaurants does Thomas Keller own?

Thomas Keller owns The French Laundry in Yountville, California, and Per Se in New York — both three-Michelin-star restaurants — plus Bouchon (Yountville, Beverly Hills and Las Vegas), Bouchon Bakery, Ad Hoc in Yountville, The Surf Club Restaurant in Surfside, Florida, and La Calenda in Yountville. In June 2026 he also took on a role reworking the food and beverage programme at the Coral Casino Beach and Cabana Club in Montecito, California, for Ty Warner Hotels & Resorts.

WRITTEN BY

Nathan Cole

Nathan Cole is the editor of Guide Net Worth. He covers celebrity wealth the way a business desk covers earnings: reported figures first, estimates labeled as estimates, and no invented numbers. Every profile on this site passes through his desk before it publishes. About Guide Net Worth · Corrections: figures are updated when new reporting emerges — contact us via the About page if you spot an error.

References & Sources

This article has been fact-checked and verified against multiple public sources, financial disclosures, SEC filings, Forbes reports, Celebrity Net Worth databases, and official records. All net worth estimates are based on publicly available information and financial analysis.

Last Updated: November 14, 2026
Fact Checked: ✓ Verified
Research Method: Public Records & Financial Analysis
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✓ VERIFIED AUTHOR

Celebrity Net Worth Researcher & Biography Analyst

Nathan Cole is the editor of Guide Net Worth. He covers celebrity wealth the way a business desk covers earnings: reported figures first, estimates labeled as estimates, and no invented numbers.
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